Date: Oct 8, 43
Dispatched: 51 Aborts: 8
Mission: Penetration support to 4th TF 160 B-17’s Field Order: 151/14
Time Up/Down: 13:42 hrs 16:17 hrs Leader: Lt Col. McCollom
Target: Bremen
Claims Air: 01-00-06 Claims Ground: 00-00-00 Lost/Damaged: 00-02
The Group made landfall over the southern tip of Etessel Island at 14:33 hrs, 24,000ft. They continued along the course to Gumingen where the bombers were seen to the north so left turn was made and bombers were picked up in the vicinity of Winsum at 14:55hrs. Bomber formation was spread out over a 20 mile area making escort very difficult. Continued with the bombers to the vicinity of Weldeshusen where bombers were left at 15:12 hrs. Group left enemy territory at Egmond 15:35 hrs, 26,000ft. One Me110 destroyed in the vicinity of Freesoythe. Shortly after R/V with the bombers at Winsum 6 Fw190s were queuing up to attack the bombers. This attack was broken up resulting in damaging 3 Fw190s. In the vicinity of Guninjen one Me210 was damaged. One Me109 damaged in the vicinity of Garrel. One B-17 seen in steep dive then blow up in flames in the vicinity of Aschendorf as a result of hits by rocket gun from Fw190. No chutes seen to open. This Fw190 was attacked by Capt. Walsh, 351st FS, who claims a damaged. One B-17 seen to go down after a collision with Fw190 in vicinity of Winschoten. Effective smoke screen over Emden. Large occasional bursts of heavy flak over route from Guningen to Weldshausen. Intense heavy flak over Bremen directed at 1st TF. One big ship and approximately 12 or 13 smaller ones seen in lake at Delfslrafuizen. Many ships that looked like barges attached to tugs were seen near shore between Markum and Lemuer. More shipping seen scattered around Zuider Zee. One large ship apparently anchored off Ijmuiden. One pilot returning early observed Ju88 above him at 18,000ft headed south in the middle of the North Sea. Capt. Stafford and Lt. Thistlethwaite of Group GQ participated.
350th: Major Rimerman. T/U 13:45 hrs. T/D 16:45 hrs. Total flight time 2:30 hrs. Three returned early, one with radio trouble, one stalled out of formation and came home on deck and one came home as escort. R/V was late due to bombers being late. Cover given to wrong box of bombers temporarily, but position corrected at once. Just as R/V was made with bombers at about 26,000ft and Sqdn at 29,000ft, 2 Me210s came in at about 4 o’clock to attack Capt Newhart’s flight. Capt Newhart and wing man turned into the attack and got on the tail of an Me210 which dived to 20,000ft, followed by Capt Newhart. The Me210 zoomed up to get on the tail of a box of bombers. Capt Newhart followed him up and gave the Me210 a short burst. The Me210 went into a steep dive followed by Capt Newhart who gave him another burst at 12,000ft. At 12,000ft the Me210 split s’d and Capt Newhart broke off the attack and pulled back up to 27,000ft. Capt Pidduck observed strikes on the wings from Capt Newhart’s attack. No other encounters took place, although Lt Price tried to beat off an attack by 2 FW190s head on to the bombers. The 190s had white striped tails and came in between the P-47s furnishing top cover, and the bombers. Lt Price tried to attack but couldn’t follow in so close to the bombers. As he pulled up he saw that the 190 had crashed into a B-17 causing an explosion. The B-17 went down in two parts. A minute later another B-17 went down with port engines on fire. The second 190 went down on fire from hits by the bombers. A third B-17 pulled out of formation and went down smoking. Flak was heavy and fairly accurate over point of penetration and at L/F. Lt Hurst reported a convoy of 12 ships (type unidentified) headed SW in Zuider Zee.
| Major | Ben | Rimerman | (Sqdn Ldr) |
| Capt | John B. | Rose | |
| 1st Lt | Melvin P. | Dawson | |
| 2nd Lt | Robert N. | Ireland | |
| Capt | Stanley R. | Pidduck | (Flt Ldr) |
| 1st Lt | Alan W. | Lowe | |
| 1st Lt | William W. | Odom | |
| 2nd Lt | Walter L. | Angelo | |
| 1st Lt | Wilford F. | Hurst | (Flt Ldr) |
| 2nd Lt | William F. | Tanner | |
| 2nd Lt | William J. | Price | |
| 2nd Lt | Robert C. | Peters | |
| Capt | Dewey E. | Newhart | (Flt Ldr) |
| 2nd Lt | Francis T. | Walsh | |
| 1st Lt | Charles W. | Dinse | |
| 2nd Lt | Dwight A. | Fry | |
| 1st Lt | John L. | Devane | |
| 2nd Lt | John | Zolner | |
| 2nd Lt | Charles O. | Durant |
Aborts/Early Returns:
| 42-7907 | ABT radio | LH-J |
| 42-74618 | ERTN escort 7907 | LH-? |
351st: Major Christian. T/U 13:33 hrs. T/D 16:21 hrs. Total flight time 2:48 hrs. Route: In south of Texel Island. R/V with bombers, Groningen to Wildeshaven out north of Amsterdam.
[Capt Lefebre and Lt Hurlburt shared an Me110 destroyed, Capts. Beckham, Kinkade, Walsh and Lt. Thistlethwaite claimed a damaged Fw190 each. Capt. Kinkade’s claim was achieved by shooting at an Fw190 on the tail of Lt. Thistlethwaite.]
| Major | Shannon | Christian | (Sqdn Ldr) | ||
| 1st Lt | Harry F. | Hunter | |||
| Capt | Charles L. | Stafford | |||
| 1st Lt | David C. | Kenney | |||
| Capt | Walter C. | Beckham | (Flt Ldr) | ||
| 2nd Lt | William T. | Thistlethwaite | YJ-Q | 42-8428 | |
| Capt | Orville A. | Kinkade | |||
| F/O | Cletus | Peterson | |||
| Capt | Frederick H. | Lefebre | (Flt Ldr) | ||
| 2nd Lt | Don M. | Hurlburt | |||
| 1st Lt | George N. | Ahles | |||
| 2nd Lt | Hassell D. | Stump | |||
| Capt | Jack R. | Walsh | |||
| F/O | Joseph E. | Wood | |||
| 1st Lt | Vic L. | Byers | |||
| 2nd Lt | Jack | Terzian | |||
| 2nd Lt | John G. | Treitz | |||
Damaged/Abort/Early Returns:
| 42-8401 | BD Cat A | YJ-R |
| 42-8428 | BD Cat A | YJ-Q |
| 42-8379 | ABT gas gauge wouldn’t work | YJ-H |
352nd: Lt Col. McCollom. T/U 13:42 hrs. T/D 16:12 hrs. Total flight time 2:30 hrs. Penetration support. Squadron made landfall at Mijkduim on time. Made rendezvous with bombers 14:49 hrs. Over Carrel Capt Hoey attacked one Me109G which was making a pass at the bombers from 3 o’clock. Capt. Hoey and his wingman, Lt. Keywan, observed strikes on the enemy aircraft. Lt. Cles fired on number two man of a Me109 element, but lost sight of them before ascertaining damage done.
| 1st Lt | Leroy W. | Ista | |
| 2nd Lt | Clifford | Armstrong | |
| 2nd Lt | Richard V. | Keywan | |
| 2nd Lt | Victor L. | Vogel | Early return |
| 2nd Lt | Hildreth R. | Owens | Early return |
| 2nd Lt | Maurice | Morrison | |
| 2nd Lt | Donald J. | Corrigan | |
| 1st Lt | Clinton H. | Sperry | |
| Capt | Charles J. | Hoey | (Flt Ldr) |
| 1st Lt | Robert P. | Geurtz | Early return |
| Capt | Raynor E. | Robertson | (Flt Ldr) |
| 1st Lt | Gordon S. | Burlingame | |
| 1st Lt | Wilbert H. | Juntilla | (Flt Ldr) |
| 1st Lt | Leslie P. | Cles |
Aborts/Early Returns:
| 42-8414 | ABT prop out | SX-K |
| 42-74659 | ABT oxygen system | SX-? |
| 42-7910 | ABT radio wouldn’t receive | SX-J |
| 42-8376 | ERTN escorted wing pilot back | SX-Q |
Stanley Pidduck was my second cousin, my mom’s first cousin. My mom was Genevieve A. Pidduck. Stanley’s father and my mom’s father, Richard William Pidduck (my grandfather) were brothers.
If you are not aware, Stanley, about 15 years after the war was killed in a plain crash with my aunt’s younger brother in Southern California. He is buried in the PIdduck family plots at Ivy Lawn Cemetary in Ventura, California.
As I’ve been told, they were in the process of landing in a plane that the wings were lower and a flying instructor with his student were in the process of taking off in a plane that the wings were higher……apparently the tower gave the wrong take off instuctions to the instructor. As neither of the planes could see each other because of where thier wings were located, they collided in mid air killing all instantly and the planes exploded; then, caught on fire. While my uncle and Stanley had taken the plane up to try it out the day before, my uncle’s license fell out in the plane. Unbelievably his license survived the crash/fire so it was reported over the news (TV) that both Stanley and myuncle had been killed. (This was before they had to notify the first of kin, first.) We didn’t know till many, many hours later that it wasn’t my uncle, but it was my aunt’s brother who had died.
I have more information, but I won’t give it out as it’s my aunt’s wishes, which I respect. She is presently 90 years old and the only one left on both sides of my family regarding that generation.
I try to look at Stanley’s death positively and thankfully as he is one of many in the service who fought for our freedom; plus, since Stanley lived for about 15 years longer than the war, I had the privilege of getting to know him.
We never knew that he was an ace pilot until my uncle and aunt went to a pilot reunion in, I think, Patterson, Ohio. As they were meeting my aunt went to look at the displays and found a fascimilie of Stanley’s Squandron Headquarters that had been in England. In the display there was a placque with the pilot’s names on it who were ace pilots and Stanley’s name was on it.
MY uncle and Stanley were very close growing up on nearby ranches and as adults. My mom said that Stanley had one other really close friend, but neither of them was ever told by Stanley that he was an ace pilot. He never talked about it, which was and is very common to this day, It’s understandable.
the me 110 g-4 wich was shot down by capt lefebre and 2lt hurlburt is it the me110 crashed in veenhuizen ,onstwedde ? the report says freesoythe ,but this is the only me110 lost that day in holland area groningen. Is there further information about a me109-g4 wich crashed that day in jipsingboertange it was the me109 gelbe 8 of 6/jg11 pilot was gunther stenzel kia.
II./JG 11 lift of at Airfield “MARX” (10 miles south west of Wilhelmshafen) at 14:22 to meet and support III./ JG 11. In the Combat Report of II./ JG 11 from October 08 you can read about the Combat in Prien (2007), Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Lustwaffe 1934 – 1945 Band 10/I Page 315 f;
Best regards Detlev Kran
The Pilot of the Me 110 Messerschmitt Bf 110G-2 (30 mm gun), Werksnummer 5611,Kennzeichen “O”, shot down near Veenhuitzen (NL) from Lefebe and Hurlburt was my Uncle Lt. Hans Jürgen Schaer and his radio operator Uffz. Wolfgang Bach from Erprobungskommando 25. The wreckage was found 1989. You can find the grave of Günther Stenzel in Ysselsteyn (NL). Block AX Row 8 Grave 200 in the same row you find the graves of Schaer and Bach.
Hello Mr Detlev Kran,
Many thanks for your reaktion , it is really unbelieveable that lt Schaer was your uncle ,.I must tell you i live very nearby the crashsite it is still a farmer field and i,ve talked to a very old lady and she was an eye-witness at that time she was working on the fields. .According to my information it is correct that the wreckage of the Bf 109 from Fw Stenzel is found in 1989 .
However the Me110 from your uncle is after the crash brought to the zerlege-betrieb in Utrecht but many parts are still present! .At this moment i am considering to investigate the crash -site it is large area and the road,s are not the same as in 1943 so it is a little bit like ,the needle in the hastings .maybe the old woman can help..I also think [i am not a profesional historian like me Prien ] .I also have a book about the history of my place and it describes your uncle and his bordfunker there also pictures inside ,there also fragments from the diary of Uffz Bach inside .
In my opnion is your uncle not shot down by the 2 pilots mentioned from the 4tg FG capt lefebre and lt hurburl. It was in Friesoythe and that,s to far from the crash site ,but the mentioned book from my place says, your uncle was together with a Ju88 also from Erprokom 25
i don,t know if this is right,maybe you now .Another case is that Capt Newheart made a claim of a Me 210 in area Aschendorf at the same time .
maybe the Me110 from your unckle .Iam not a scientist but in my opinion 2 choiches,s . I never read the books of Mr Prien but they same very intressting to my ,i often see them on the internet. Was Fw Stenzel making rendez -vous with 2/JG 11 Oblt Hondt en Lt Widmann? ,on the book of Prien says Fw Stenzel abschuss P-47 luftkampf .Was he the only guy from his staffel 6/jg11 .I,ve you wish we can have further conversations .
Kindly regards Harm
Hallo Mr Detlev Kran,
Thank you for comment ,it is really unbelieveble to hear at this way he was your uncle.my personal intrest is the aviation of ww2 but i am not a pro- or historian .The place were your uncle crashed is near my place and that,s also for the crash of Fw Stenzel . Soon a have an appointment with a old woman who wittnessed the crash of the Me110 at that time she was labouring at the farmfields in the same place where the plane crashed.
You mentioned that the plane was found in 1989 ,that is correct but it was the plane of Fw Stenzel ,your uncle plane is after the crash brought by lorry ]firma de boer Alteveer] to Zerlege-betrieb in Utrecht .
I don,t know exactly the location but i am pretty sure and will examen the area with metaldetection ,only if the famers permitted to do that .
I also studied figther-command Usaaf and read the rapports over 8 oktober 1943.
I have also another variant of the plane who downed your uncle .
Have you any info about the flight of Fw Stenzel [was he with Oblt Hondt at that time ?
Please i like to hear from you
I try a short translation of the only Information’s I found about Feldwebel Stenzel. In the Combat Report of II./ JG 11 you can read that the Task of II./JG 11 was to support III./ JG 11. Source: Combat Report of II./Jg 11 in Prien (2007), Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Lustwaffe 1934 – 1945 Band 10/I Seiten 315 f
Best regards Detlev
Hi Guys
I’m afraid I can’t publish excepts from other people’s books on the site without their express permission – I might be infringing their copyright. Entirely my fault for not posting ‘rules’ somewhere, but if you do want to exchange info/emails I can put you in touch.
All the best
Hi,
I am also interested what happened with Fw. Gunther Stenzel flying the Messerschmitt Bf-109. Yesterday i visited together with my father the place where Stenzel crashed on 8 October 1943. My father was an eye whitness of the crash while he was working on a farmland just about 300 meter where Stenzel crashed. Reading this conversation, “harm” is Dutch and is leaving nearby Onstwedde/Vlagtwedde. I am wondering who “harm” is and what he knows about the crash of Gunther Stenzel.
My father is Derk Hidding, 78 years old and now living in Vlagtwedde.
With best regards.
Jan Hidding
The mentioned B17:
“This Fw190 was attacked by Capt. Walsh, 351st FS, who claims a damaged. One B-17 seen to go down after a collision with Fw190 in vicinity of Winschoten. Effective smoke screen over Emden. ”
This must be the B17G – c/n 8537 42-37751. It made and emergency landing at 5 km NE of Urk.
For more information: http://www.urkinoorlogstijd.nl – http://urkinoorlogstijd.nl/downloads/CR%20-%20%20T2935.pdf
http://overig.roberthofman.nl/luchtoorlog/b17g-42-37751/
Robert Hofman
Many thanks for the further info Robert
Dear Robert,
I think that the b17 near Winschoten was “Marie Helena” from 100th bomb Group. Lt. Erich Hondt have had a Mid Air collision with a b17 in that area. All members of the Crew KIA.
All informations about the Crash
2nd Lt. J. Raymond Gormley – 100th Bomb Group
http://www.100thbg.com/mainpages/…/gormley_jr.htm – Diese Seite übersetzen
351st Sqdn. Assigned 100th Bomb Group late August 1943. MISSIONS OF LT RAYMOND GORMLEY … 07 . 08/10/43, BREMEN, A/C 42-3386, MARIE HELENA …
Hello Robert,
I think the B-17 42-3386 of the 100th BG Marie-Helena, you mean after it was rammed by Oblt Erich Hondt.
This Fortress broke in 2 and came down in Bellingwolde [nearby winschoten] .On the internet is also a report of a gunner from a nearby Fortress Piccadilly-Lilly who described it .The Me-110 was in the area together with 2 Fw-190,s [Hondt and his wingman Widmann] .
Regards Harm
Hello All,
Thanks for the reply. If it wasn’t the B17G – c/n 8537 42-37751, than it isn’t mentioned I assume. Although the time and place matches.
The other B17’s mentioned later were already at / nearby target. (although in the MACR Harpstedt is mentioned, which is not correct).
Good luck all and thanks for the reply.
Robert
My brother was on the “Marie Helena” B-17 F 423386 Oct 8,1943 that crashed near Bellingwolde. 10 KIA. Wartime 5 were buried in Bellingwolde. The other 5 the Germans took to Leer, Germany and were buried there in a church yard. Why would they be taken there? If you know, please let me know. Ken. Spokane, Washington. USA THANK YOU